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Author Topic: Strategy Ruin...Possibility...  (Read 8421 times)
Stixsmaster
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« on: January 29, 2009, 05:09:31 am »

Hey all,

I just got the game via steam...

& well I liked it...but I noticed that a good majority of it is sheer luck on the planets you attack...or defend...because I have tried taking on a planet that has like 3 ships with 5 and lost...then the other way around I try defending with like 50 while sumone attacks with 45 and loose...

Where is the strategy when numbers obviously are not the key to winning...yet you have no way of knowing which color is stronger and what their diff skills/perks or what ever are?

I really like this game...easy to learn fast...and most of the time yes strategy is there...but when these events happen...the strategy is obviously misplaced...and ruined...

I am sorry...I really am...but this is 1 thing that just caught me off guard with the game...

---Stixsmaster
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Chris
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« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2009, 05:32:00 am »

No colour has an advantage over any other colour; what you're seeing is the effect of luck. That's why skills/perks aren't mentioned... they don't exist. Smiley

Numbers are usually the key to winning, there's just a random element which occasionally pushes it the other way. You'll see it happen more often when there are only a few ships in the battle.
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Stixsmaster
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« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2009, 05:36:45 am »

Ah that is what I figured...

As long as it does not happen too often I am happy but it seems to happen like way too much when I play with Higher or above AI difficulty...like I will be doing good at beginning then...when I am at my peek...the AI will sumhow manage to get that 1 even to happen when it is like 215 to 195 and I loose...and that just bugs the crap outta me...because that is the 1 planet the messes me up...and that just ruins the whole strategy idea for me...and makes me want to just stop playing for a bit...and go play sumthing else...

EDIT:
Lemme just say overall the game is good...but I have to say I noticed that as I get to playing Higher and above difficulties...the luck rate drops dramatically...and I start to see me start getting into completely impossible situations...like I will be doing pretty much the exact same thing as the AI...and having the same luck...then outta no where...the unthinkable happens...and I get screwed...and of course...I am the 1 that pays for it...and my whole game is thrown off...

Of course I can understand why you would put a luck factor...it is there to keep games random...never the same...it is there to prevent games from being tied...even tho it may still be possible...but it does feel to me that the high the difficulty the less luck you have...and I have tried so many diff strategies...

Like I have tried where I send 4 ships to 1 planet like the AI then I see the AI send like 10 on next turn to another planet...but I can not do this...I am stuck with those that I just won that first fight with...so it kinda defeats me being able to win...

---Stixsmaster

P.S. I am just trying to be clear...I have seen much in this game at higher and above difficulties that just seem to kill it majorly...due to what is called luck...but if it is due to luck then your luck rate drops dramatically when you go from High to Higher and above...
« Last Edit: January 29, 2009, 05:53:47 am by Stixsmaster » Logged
Chris
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« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2009, 06:52:13 am »

I understand it's frustrating to see that kind of thing happen. Please believe me when I promise you that the level of AI difficulty has no effect on the battle algorithm or on your luck. Smiley

Probability can do funny things. It's been shown that there's a significant difference between what is actually random and what we humans perceive to be random. For example, if you tell someone to draw a number of dots in random places on a piece of paper, they'll behave relatively predictably compared to a computer with a random number generator.
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Stixsmaster
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« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2009, 07:00:35 am »

True...Chris...but another fact is computers for real CAN NOT do anything randomly...it is impossible...in fact there is always a pattern to how a computer perceives randomness...so a really smart person could easily figure out the code to the game and beat it everytime...

This is not easy to prove tho...because in simple terms...how a computer program/software does randomness is more so like it is just running but always within an encryption...so it looks to be random when it really isnt...its a lil secret that almost no one knows about...how do I know about it...because I have watched 1 too many shows and movies that go into great accurate detail on technology...and well I have seen so much it is hard for me to recall where exactly I saw it...I know on the tv but I aint trying to be so general...lol...but I kid you not...I am telling the truth...

But that is off topic...and I understand what you are saying...and as I said the game is good still...

---Stixsmaster
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Jp
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« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2009, 08:11:40 am »

I'm sure Chris understands how PRNGs work.

If you knew exactly how the MI code worked (Not just the battle code - any call to the PRNG, you'd have to know about), and could figure out the seed value used for the PRNG, you could theoretically tell whether you had an advantage or not in the next battle. You'd still need to know how many ships you were up against to guarantee winning, though. And you'd need to know the exact PRNG in use (It's probably the 32-bit Mersenne Twister, but no guarantees).

Honestly, PRNGs generate numbers that are precisely identical to random for purposes like this. If you were writing a climate model or something you'd want to use a 'physical' source of randomness, but that's a very special case.
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I used to play Mayhem Intergalactic before it was cool.
Chris
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« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2009, 11:07:00 am »

Yes, it's true that the numbers used by Mayhem Intergalactic's battles aren't "truly" random. They do follow a (very complicated) pattern, and in theory you could figure out the pattern and predict the sequence of numbers that will be generated. I can assure you, however, that the AI difficulty level does not factor into the algorithm used to generate this sequence. Smiley
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Stixsmaster
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« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2009, 03:01:03 pm »

Ah yea...see I know...there is much to take into account...to be able to guess the proper pattern...but I was just stating a lil sum sum of information that many do not like to believe...because they just assume that computers are capable of randomness all the time...

Basically my 10 cents of info for free...

But yea...I understand about the AI level not being a factor and appreciate the info on that...

---Stixsmaster
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Jp
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« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2009, 03:21:29 am »

Actually, Stix, many Linux distributions have a true RNG built-into them - they collect truly random information by measuring various facets of your hardware every so often - say, how long it takes to do the next file read. Those numbers have some inherent random properties - if you grab the least significant bit of that number, for example, it's basically perfectly random.

If you've got access to a linux distro, the file /dev/random outputs a truly random sequence if you try to read data from it. /dev/urandom gives you pseudo-random numbers, but /dev/urandom won't ever block, whereas /dev/random needs to gather enough random bits of data before it'll send them over.
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Kumlekar
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« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2009, 05:17:55 am »

Actually, Stix, many Linux distributions have a true RNG built-into them - they collect truly random information by measuring various facets of your hardware every so often - say, how long it takes to do the next file read. Those numbers have some inherent random properties - if you grab the least significant bit of that number, for example, it's basically perfectly random.

If you've got access to a linux distro, the file /dev/random outputs a truly random sequence if you try to read data from it. /dev/urandom gives you pseudo-random numbers, but /dev/urandom won't ever block, whereas /dev/random needs to gather enough random bits of data before it'll send them over.
I've never heard of seeding file time to a random # generator, but that seems like a pretty good idea.  Usually its easiest to seed the current time to it, but thats not perfect.
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What is Six Times Nine
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Jp may have played mayhem before it was cool, but I play while its cool! *

* "Cool" is defined as the period of time in which Kumlekar plays a game.
Chris
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« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2009, 12:34:57 pm »

It turns out that the passage of time is actually rather predictable. Who knew? Wink
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DangerosoDavo
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« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2009, 01:22:36 pm »

perhaps a better asnwer would be to scale down the kill/death in a fight.. make battles last a little bit longer so when your in 200/200 battles that laast a little bit longer so you dont get screwed by 1 bit of bad luck with the random.. whatever random you use lol.. or.. create 3 random numbers and use the average..

maybe?
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Chris
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« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2009, 01:24:27 pm »

I could certainly make it less random. I'm just not entirely convinced that I should. Smiley
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DangerosoDavo
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« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2009, 01:26:43 pm »

wow thats a fast response lol

maybe? could try it on your own to see if you like it and if its works out.. maybe implement it into next version

also.. what is it made in? prog language
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Drath
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« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2009, 01:28:45 pm »

I say leave the randomness untouched. Even or close battles are gambles, and gambles always make games interesting Smiley. Either way, it's just bad strategy to bet everything on one single even fight. You deserve to lose if you do that Smiley
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